Hoagland & Wilcock on Coast to Coast
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5-15/16-04

AB: From the high desert in the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon – as the time zone may dictate – all of them covered like a blanket by this program, Coast to Coast AM. I’m Art Bell. It’s the weekend, and I am honored to be with you on a Saturday night going into Sunday morning, and of course tomorrow night as well.

I have some shocking and tragic news for you at the top of the program and I’m sure Richard’s gonna have a lot to say about this and will probably fill me in on details I don’t yet have. But what it boils down to is that Dr Eugene Mallove is dead. And it is indeed with great sadness that we report the passing of Gene Mallove who died, no, correction, was killed, on May 14th apparently due to some sort of – we don’t know about this – allegedly, some are saying “some kind of property dispute”. It is considered by the police to be a homicide and an investigation is under way now.

Gene is survived by his wife Joanne, son Ethan, and daughter Kim. No funeral arrangements are known at this time. Gene Mallove who in 1991, wrote the book “Fire from Ice: “ – now, maybe you know him, if you didn’t -- “Searching for the Truth behind the Cold Fusion Furor”. [He] was the first to courageously and boldly express the truth behind cold fusion long before any science journalist ever dared to. He maintained the cold fusion [crusade] at great personal sacrifice, which initially drew many to learn the truth behind cold fusion. Gene’s generosity and commitment to a better world will be forever appreciated.” That was written by Steven B. Krivet.

There were, you know, a hundred emails in my inbox about the apparent bludgeoning death of Dr Mallove and I just don’t know what to say about this except the number of scientists, and research biologists, and astronomers who have met their death prematurely, in so many cases, is beginning to add up to a fairly large number.

Briefly in the world, the US military said Saturday it killed 18 gunmen believed loyal to radical cleric Al Sadhir in Baghdad, and jet fighters bombarded militia positions on the capitol’s outskirts.

“Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfield authorized the expansion of a secret program that encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners to obtain intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq.” The New Yorker is reporting this. That would be certainly a bombshell if true. The Defense Department strongly denied the claims made in that report, which cited unnamed current and former intelligence officials and was published on the magazine’s website. Pentagon’s spokesperson Laurence Durita [sp?] issued a statement calling the claims, “Outlandish, conspiratorial and filled with error and anonymous conjecture.”

Meanwhile, the President’s approval ratings have hit the lowest levels of his tenure -- presently 42%. Overall job approval at 42%. That’s a Newsweek poll.

So that’s the world news. Of course the real shocking news is about Eugene Mallove, and we’re about to, I’m sure, hear more from Richard C. Hoagland. We are also going to be joined shortly by David Wilcock, assuming he can find [a proper telephone], perhaps at the bottom of the hour, and he’s on a mad dash trying to find a telephone.

But Richard C. Hoagland you all know. A former space science museum curator, a former NASA consultant, and -- during the historic Apollo missions to the moon -- was science advisor to Walter Cronkite, and of course CBS News. For the last 19 years Hoagland has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible intelligently designed artifacts on Mars. In the past four years he and his team’s investigators have been quietly extended, or the investigation itself, to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the Moon.

As I mentioned, as soon as we’re able, perhaps shortly, we’ll have a conversation simultaneously with David Wilcock. All of that coming right up.

(Commercial break)

Good evening. I think we’re gonna luck out and get David online right away. I’ll tell you about that in a moment.

There is one other thing that I’d like to mention.

As you know “the Movie” coming up, the big blockbuster movie, The Day After Tomorrow, is causing a firestorm, I mean a literal firestorm of publicity. Which I guess in a way is probably good for a movie. From the moment when NASA said that they weren’t gonna let their scientists comment on the whole thing, to the next moment, when all of a sudden they decided they would, to stories from Britain – the highest officials in the government in Britain saying that it’s realistic --to others saying it’s not … to this simple email that I think says, well, says it all -- just about. “I read your book Art, and loved it.” He refers there to “The Coming Global Superstorm,” which, of course, in part was the basis for the Day After Tomorrow movie, which is about to break over our heads in more ways than one.

He writes, “Art I read your book and I’m looking forward to seeing the movie. However, both the left and right wings of this country are misrepresenting your book. Unless I misread the book, it is not an indictment of global warming. It was however a description of a natural geological process which may or may not have been pushed along by pollution.” Thank you. “In your book to me you pointed [out] that this geological process happens about every twelve thousand years, and you tie it to the zodiac as a possible device the ancients used to warn the future people of Earth. Or, did I miss the point?”

No, my friend, that’s from atocha, atocha is it? [Art spells out] a-t-o-c-h-a. You didn’t miss the point at all. You have the point dead on my friend. And I’ve been trying to make it and make it and remake it and the left, of course, is using this as a sort of, “this is going to be your tomorrow and you better get on the Bush administration and knock some sense into them.” The right, of course, dismisses the whole thing as ridiculous and impossible. Bear in mind this is a science fiction movie, it’s not a documentary. It’s a science fiction movie. [It is] based though, I’m afraid, on what may be a rather accurate forecast of what is going to come -- because it has been here before. We have archeological evidence that mostly we try to bury and not think about with respect to this, but this e-mailer hit it right on the head. I mean, both sides have this totally wrong. And in the end, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a natural occurrence, one done by the hand of man, or the hand of man was helping it along … or any of the above; we should all be past that. And if you look at what happened to Europe this last year and all the dead there, it’s only the beginning. Our weather is changing, and it’s going to change, and we think rather radically.

So, I think we should be looking at alternative energy sources. We had a little tip of the hat during the Carter administration for that, remember? And nothing since, by any administration … so we ought to be looking at ways that we could prolong our energy independence. After all, we’re over there – many believe – fighting a war for exactly all of that right now. And so it’s fitting, in a way I guess, that tonight we will discuss the murder of somebody that’s at the forefront of energy research and ultimate independence for the United States. I’m so sorry to have to have been the voice, probably, to bring you that news. Dr Eugene Mallove [has been] murdered and here with what may be more details would be Richard C. Hoagland. Hey buddy.

RH: Hi Art.

AB: Welcome to the program.

RH: You know, we’ve done a lot of shows over the years and this is gonna be one of the more difficult ones, because Gene and I go way back, and I had talked to him just a couple days ago. Some of the things that we’re gonna talk about tonight, you know, that we’ve never talked about before, were part of that conversation. Robin and I were planning to go to New Hampshire next week to meet with him and the people at his lab, the New Energy Foundation, and discuss some very important political and technical developments relating to new energy, hyper-dimensional physics, cold fusion, anti-gravity [!] -- if you want to even use that term. There are some extraordinary breakthroughs waiting in the wings – and when we got a call early afternoon today, from a very close friend so that I knew that it was not a hoax, and he relayed that he had had a call from someone that he believed about this shocking, absolutely incomprehensible thing, I spent the rest of the day trying to track down if this was real.

And unfortunately, as of about an hour ago, we talked with the police in Connecticut where the murder occurred, and although they’re being very circumspect and there are rules about not acknowledging victims until the family has been able to come and view the body and make a positive ID, the local media in Connecticut, particularly my old station, Channel 3, which is WFSB now, used to be WTIC, have confirmed that Gene was found about 11pm in southern Connecticut at his mother’s home, we believe. He was robbed, apparently.

AB: At his mother’s home. In Connecticut.

RH: In southern Connecticut. He lived in New Hampshire.

AB: Right. In Concord.

RH: Right. But in Norwich Connecticut, which is just a couple towns up from where I used to live in Norwalk, so I know the neighborhood very well, there has been some discussion on the net about a property dispute with a tenant and all that. I have no idea where that story came from. We have no confirmation of any of that. Apparently he was found, his body was found in the yard of his family home.

AB: Bludgeoned?

RH: Bludgeoned to death. He was beaten to death.

AB: My God. How old was he, Richard, do you know?

RH: He was about my age and your age. We’re all the same age. You know, the folks who are trying to make the world better are just about the same age.

And it’s so shocking to have talked to somebody who was so vibrant and had so many exciting things going on. Tonight I’m hoping that this show can become a kind of living memorial to Gene’s work. You know, they talk about people who will change the world? Well, Gene was changing the world. And I have this awful sinking feeling that that’s the reason he’s no longer with us tonight; that this rearguard action [is] to prevent the future from coming, to prevent a new day from dawning. A few Neanderthals are running around out there doing despicable things, in a desperate last minute attempt to keep the inevitable from happening.

And the reason I say that is because the coincidence of what we talked about and me talking to him at all, because we hadn’t talked on the phone for two years.

AB: What is it that brought you back together, Richard?

RH: Well, as I said on George’s show the other night, when we were in Washington at the X-Conference, we had some extremely interesting meetings on Capitol Hill with Senators -- not Senators – Congressmen, and staff. And in particular, we’ve got some people on the inside who are so enamored with what our message is and what we have to offer in the way of data and research and contacts, through other data, that they have basically offered me a briefing on Capitol Hill, more than one, at my discretion. The room actually, one room has already been reserved, and I was calling Gene to specifically invite him to discuss it with me when we got together next week … to be a part of this extraordinary opportunity.

Gene was at the center of the spider web of all of the credible scientists and technologists and engineers who have labored for so many years in the vineyards to bring forth this so-called  “free energy” and new energy physics and technology which this planet so desperately, desperately needs.

AB: It certainly does. Richard, so, he was a leader in Cold Fusion. Now, Cold Fusion in America was a very controversial thing. As you know some institutions of higher learning were able to duplicate the experiments while others were not. It was kind of quietly dropped. Pons and Fleischman moved to Europe, got fed up with the way it was being treated in this country. Where did Dr Eugene Mallove fit in, in the scheme of things?

RH: Well, Gene started out like we all started out … very squeaky clean mainstream. You know my background was Cronkite/NASA, his background was MIT; he had two or three PhD’s, I kind of lost track. He was a nuclear physicist, he was an environmental scientist. He knew the bad – [the] “down side” -- of nuclear physics and nuclear fission, and the myth of hot fusion, which we’ve always been promised would happen, and it hasn’t happened for thirty, forty years. It’s almost like the quote from Alice in Wonderland, “Jam tomorrow, jam yesterday, but never jam today.”

AB: He was still an advocate of it.

RH: Not hot fusion -- not at all!

AB: No.

RH: What turned him into an activist in the new energy frontier was when he was [the] science writer, [the] head science writer at MIT, which is a very prestigious position. He found scientists on the payroll of the department of energy at MIT faking data against cold fusion experiments!

AB: I’ve heard this.

RH: It’s not rumor -- it’s fact.

AB: Actually, altering.

RH: Altering the data.

AB: In other words to show…

RH: …Making it appear that their experiment, which received a positive result, actually perceived a negative result. And he was so incensed when his department would do nothing about this, this egregious violation of every science ethic if not moral ethic one can imagine…

AB: He resigned over that?

RH: He resigned over that, specifically. And then he went into a period where, you know when you kind of blow the whistle on the in-crowd, you get blacklisted?

AB: Yes.

RH: And you can’t get a job. And he tried to launch an independent laboratory and journal devoted to cold fusion. He had done his homework. He had written the book “Fire from Ice”. If you read the book, you’ll see there was a multitude of data even back in 1989 showing that this was a real, if completely mysterious, phenomenon.

But he spent a tremendous number of years, Art, basically paying the price of being a man of integrity. And that’s one of the wonderful things that I loved about him. Because he was unstoppable, he was determined to get at the truth, whatever the truth was, make it public, and bring this paradigm, this new age, where this planet no longer has to suffer from the want and privation of the oil economy and the control of limited resources, which we’re seeing the bitter, bitter fruits of now in the Middle East and on our TV screens every single night.

AB: Yes, yes.

RH: He was looking to a different day, a different path, a different dawning of the real human age. And on the eve of potentially some breakthroughs in that direction, he has been brutally murdered.

AB: It was made to look like, or appears to be, robbery [as an] initial motive, or at least [that] he was robbed. That doesn’t mean that’s why he was killed.

RH: We don’t know really anything. We’ve got the names of the detectives, you know, from the police department. We’re gonna talk with them tomorrow. We’re putting other people in touch with them that may have information. I just find the coincidence, given the breakthrough that he described to me on the phone, which I can talk about, and given what I was going to be able to bring him to in the way of conversations at the center of power, you know, in Washington with the peoples’ representatives. You know the White House may be out of bounds…

AB: Richard, how much do you know about this, in quotes, “breakthrough” that he had told you about? Would it be so big that it might be a motive for murder?

RH: Well there are several levels. There are the technical breakthroughs which I can talk about. This was a political breakthrough. Because remember Art, the problem has always been, once you solve the science, how do you get it before the American people.

AB: Of course. So you’re saying he had achieved a breakthrough in that arena?

RH: He felt he had achieved a breakthrough. It was supposed to be moving forward in the next few weeks. It was one of the things we were going to discuss. I was actually quite skeptical because I know how Washington can grind important things into dust just by dragging them out interminably. And then you just quit. People just, they have to go on with their lives. He felt this was a political breakthrough. Well, let me tell you in a nutshell what he said it was.

Many years ago, back in 1989, there was a very stinging, negative Department of Energy report which basically put the nails in the coffin of cold fusion. When the New York Times writes about cold fusion, or Popular Science, or The Washington Post, or Science Magazine, they’re basically quoting from the conclusions of this panel of eminent scientists/physicists.

AB: In a nutshell Richard, time’s almost up here in the half hour--

RH: Yep. But basically [the DOE Report] said there was nothing there.

RH: What Gene told me two day ago, is [that] the Department of Defense, the DOD -- because of a sudden new perceived, get this, “terrorist angle on cold fusion and new energy”…

AB: Terrorist angle, yes.

RH: We’ll get to the details after the break. But he said that they [the DOD] were going to completely overturn the DOE 1989 negative Report!

AB: Alright. Richard C. Hoagland, hold tight. When we come back we’ll be joined, incidentally, by David Wilcock. I’m Art Bell from the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.

(commercial break)

AB: If you’re just joining us, Richard C. Hoagland is here, [and] we’re about to be joined by David Wilcock. We’re discussing the bludgeoning murder of Dr Eugene Mallove, just announced tonight. Now, Dr Mallove has been a guest on this program many number of times. He was a leader, a proponent of cold fusion, and we’re discussing his life, what he did, what he may have been onto with Richard C. Hoagland. Shortly [we’ll hear from] David Wilcock [as well.] Stay right where you are.

(commercial continues)

AB: By the way, what I read at the beginning about Dr Mallove’s death was written by Steven B Krivet, I believe that, I hope that’s correct, Steven at the New Energy Times. So it’s a somber moment. There’s no question about it – a really solemn moment. And Annabel in Los Angeles writes, “Do you ever worry about your own safety? If all our brilliant scientists keep dying under mysterious circumstances, and you’re one who brings us some of that information, I hope you’re safe.”

Well, I don’t know. I’ve wondered about that over the years, Richard, and I’m sure there have been a few times when you have too. When you deal in this kind of information, somebody’s going to be unhappy with you, inevitably. And I suppose it’s a risk of life but I never gave it a whole lot of thought. I just… how ‘bout you?

RH: As you know, I’ve had some interesting experiences. Back in ‘99, the heart attack [occurred] under very mysterious circumstances.

AB: Yes.

RH: George had Robin on the other night, and he wanted to go into that, so we did a bit. But no, this is certainly not something that you wake up every morning frozen in indecision [about], and Gene, if he had known this was part of the landscape, I don’t think he would have changed one thing he was doing. It’s too important. Too many peoples’ lives hang in the balance for the better.

Let me make one small correction. I’m now going back to that conversation trying to remember every nuance, as you do when it’s your last conversation.

AB: Of course.

RH: And he -- the reason the DOD is now involved [in reassessing the 1989 DOE Report] -- is because there is a quote, “terrorist connection to cold fusion”, which is bizarre … it’s because it’s linked through the DOE -- and their nuclear weapons mandate.

AB: The Department of Energy.

RH: What you may not know is, the Department of Energy—

AB: Richard, can you give me any, and the audience, any idea of what possible application cold fusion could have in terrorism?

RH: Oh yeah. It’s elementary… Simple. In fact, it was so obvious that I remember during the conversation several times saying, in a very acerbic tone, “Well, of course they’ll get interested now -- because they’ve got the fear factor.”

AB: Well, help me to understand the fear factor. I don’t quite get… we need to bring David on here so hit me with this first though, if you would please, and the audience, how…

RH: All right, I have to do a thirty second backgrounder…

AB: [Disappointed-sounding] Okay.

RH: You know Art, we gotta do it that way.

AB: Alright.

RH: One of the things that was serendipitously discovered in the Pons and Fleischman post-era, which Gene was heavily involved [in,] in terms of monitoring the efforts to replicate Pons and Fleischman and the cold fusion and the bottle on the desk, that kind of thing, was the mysterious appearance of isotopes … nuclear materials in the experiments, that were not there in the beginning. And they discovered that what was happening, this went all the way from the University of Texas, to Los Alamos, to France, to Japan, that they were getting nuclear transmutation.

AB: Got it.

RH: The typical, you know, alchemy dream …

AB: The bubbles. The bubbles gave off what appeared to be a reaction.

RH: Well, it was a variety of experiments, but they all have this common thread that, in addition to the energy -- the heat that appeared -- you got these bizarre transmutations of elements … that shouldn’t have occurred under any circumstances.

AB: However, it’s my understanding that it was rather subtle, at that.

RH: Well, in the beginning it was subtle. But here’s where the breakthrough came. [It was] apparently published in the open literature, meaning any scientist in the world can read it, or anybody working for Bin Laden. In the major physical journal, the Japanese physics journal, a group of scientists at Mitsubishi -- which is one of the heavy-hitter corporations in Japan -- conducted some extraordinarily simple experiments. And I won’t bore people with what they are. Gene described them to me and they’re incredibly simple.

AB: You can bore me with that if you want.

RH: Okay, all right, all right … tell me where you wanna go.

AB: I wanna understand the process that…

RH: All right, you basically have a container. A closed container. Like a vacuum tube, all right -- it can be big or small. You have a membrane down the middle, which separates one side with a deuterium gas – which is heavy hydrogen – from the other side, which is basically a good vacuum. And on the membrane, which can be Palladium, which is one of the cold fusion active elements .…

AB: Or nickel ….

RH: Well, what he described was Palladium. That’s right [nickel was also used]. You plate some other material [on the Palladium membrane]. Some other metal. And, depending upon what metal you chose, when you basically observe what was coming through the membrane, into the vacuum side, it had changed elemental composition -- and was a heavier isotope! And, he lead me through the parent/daughter product series and he said, “Guess what you need to put on the membrane to get U-235 in the empty chamber?”

AB: What?

RH: Well, he didn’t [say]. But, I mean you can just do the nucleon calculation yourself. It’s a common metal … it’s vacuum deposition. Any high school lab, any high school physics lab, can make this up.

AB: Is the suggestion through all of this, Richard, that this element could then be used in some catastrophic bomb?

RH: If you had a Bid Laden type who wanted to make U-235, who wanted to make a lot of U-235 to make a fission bomb…

AB: Yes.

RH: … like the old Oak Ridge.

AB: You’re saying you could manufacture…

RH: In a garage, in a basement, in a chemlab. Anywhere on Earth, with trivial expenditure of resources, money, equipment. That’s way the DOD and the DOE are suddenly interested in cold fusion… because it can kill people.

AB: All right. I’ve got it. Anything that could kill people, certainly.

All right, time to bring David, he’s been patient, in on the conversation. We’ll continue. David Wilcock is a professional intuitive consultant who, since reading Richard C. Hoagland’s Monuments of Mars, in 1993, has intensively jumped into the middle of UFOlogy, ancient civilizations, consciousness, science, and new paradigms of matter and energy. He’s the author of a trilogy of scientific research works known as the Convergence series, which gives definitive support to the idea that a change of matter, energy, and consciousness is actually now occurring on the Earth and throughout the solar system. So I wanted to bring him into the conversation and if luck is with us here he is. David?

DW: Hello Art, how are you doing?

AB: Hi. I take it you’ve been following closely the conversation to this point. I apologize for keeping you on this long without bringing you on but, this was breaking news that really did have to be covered. I hope you understand.

DW: Absolutely, it’s not a problem.

AB: All right, you’re gonna have to get good and close to that…

RH: Yeah, I can barely hear David.

DW: Okay.

AB: Yeah, good and close to that phone and yell at us. If your lips are touching, then you’re in the right place, David.

DW: Okay, how do I sound now?

AB/RH: Much better.

AB: Much better. All right. David, I’d like to give you the opportunity to comment on what you’ve heard so far and/or add or subtract anything you would like to.

DW: Well, in the course of my work I’ve been affiliated with people who are involved in the free energy field, quite directly in some cases. I was invited to speak at the 2002 US Psychotronics Association Conference. I’m actually going to be speaking at the one that’s going on this year, as well. The website for that is www.psychotronics.org.

And I have seen evidence of people having threats or being assassinated. One example would be [from when] I spoke with Dale Pond. He had made a breakthrough [in free energy], and then came home and found a burnt match in the middle of the carpet of his living room. Another example, which is even more bizarre, occurred with somebody who I actually spoke on the same stage with, and I guess I won’t say his name right now. This particular guy had made a breakthrough in free energy [achieving an over-unity effect], and the first time it happened -- the very next morning when he came back to his lab -- everything related to the experiment was missing … including all the paperwork, all the prototypes, et cetera.

Then, later on, he made another breakthrough. This time it was in his own private apartment. And he goes out for his son’s baseball game, which takes about four hours of time, and he comes back to his apartment, and there’s no carpets, there’s no shower curtain, there’s no shower curtain rod, there’s no furniture, there’s nothing in the cabinets. The entire apartment was literally gutted head-to-toe. That’s sounds pretty outrageous, I don’t know how somebody could move that quickly in four hours, but I suppose it’s possible. And I believe he was telling me the truth.

AB: As most of my audience knows, David, there have been a bevy, I guess you’d say, of research biologists, people working on all kinds of little bugs, other scientists working on, you know, leading edge, cutting edge science in a number of fields that have met very mysterious deaths in the last few years. I mean, this is just one more.

DW: Yeah, the literature on this is pretty solid. I guess as far as the personal angle, which is a question had Richard also answered recently, I am reminded of a quote from Abraham Lincoln where he says, “I would rather die once at the hands of an assassin than die every day in fear of assassination.”

AB: That’s right. And that’s really the answer to the danger question. You just can’t live your life that way. Yes, some lines of work are more dangerous than others, for obvious reasons.

RH: What is so ironic is that, in [my] conversation [with Gene,] we were talking about [how] the dam appears to be about to break. It’s been fifteen years -- coming up on fifteen years -- since Pons and Fleischman, and the negative DOE Report … which basically killed all official scientific interest, you know, by the [scientific] journals, by Nature, by Science, by the DOE itself, as a source of [research] funding. Most scientists basically have to chase after grants to stay alive and keep publishing. But Gene held the torch very high, and he was able to marshal some very prestigious people on the Board of the [Infinite Energy] Magazine, and the Board of the [New Energy] Foundation. And I am confident tonight that this [research] will go on -- that this [murder] is [just] a desperate, stupid, insane act of “something” [to try to stop this research]  – but, I can’t believe it’s just “coincidence.”

AB: Do either one of the two of you care to comment on the dire, dire situation the world is in and how really important an alternative energy source is right now? How really important and how critical it is?

DW: I would say it’s of ultimate importance. If we don’t change the way things are going, we’re not going to have a planet. What could be more important than that?

AB: One of the government officials in Britain said, “It’s a bigger problem for the world than terrorism.”

DW: Oh, by far.

AB: So that’s how big a deal that we’re talking about here. Everything, literally … your life style, your life, the life of those people in the world … all of it rests on the ability of this world to figure out a way to stop doing some of what we’re doing right now, and find a new way to do it … or else.

DW: Hypothetically, let’s say that part of the reason -- or maybe the main reason -- for the extinguishing of these free energy scientists (of which I’m aware of more examples than I’ve given),  has to do with money. Well, the bottom line is, how can you make money when there’s nobody there? How can you make money when the world itself has been irreversibly damaged by the continuing abuse of these of fossil fuels? If there is any truth to the idea of Peak Oil, then we don’t really have much more. And that’s why gas is two dollars a gallon.

AB: Actually, it hit three bucks a gallon in Santa Barbara… $3.09.

DW: Totally unreasonable.

AB: Or something horrible like that in Santa Barbara. I knew we’d hit three dollar gas.

RH: And for full service it went over $4.07 last night.

AB: Yeah, I heard that. I forget where that was. Was it California somewhere?

RH: It was Los Angeles.

AB: LA. Over four dollars. Well, it’s gonna get worse, and it’s gonna get worse, and it’s gonna get a lot worse. And people, I don’t think all of them grasp the real place this is gonna go. I mean, this country runs on oil. All the things you buy, just about all of them are transported by vehicles that burn fossil fuels to get them from here to there.

DW: That’s correct.

AB: Our whole economy is based on this. I understand what’s at stake. Or, at least I think I understand part of it. This is the most serious issue in the world and we have people -- of course, we have no reason to say that Dr Mallove was murdered because of his research -- but you also can’t dismiss that as one very strong possibility.

RH: Art, I just look at this coincidence, and I can not believe it’s “coincidence.” Because, when we were going to get together, we were going to share some critical information on both sides and then I was going to take him to Washington to meet with people that we met with, and many many others, in a setting where his three PhD’s and all the people that he talks to, and the technology he could bring with him…

Remember how, Art, you’ve always wanted a gadget to stick on your desk?

AB: Well, that’s what I’ve always said, just give me a, even a toy – something!

RH: Well, Gene has that. He had that. And I wanted that for my Washington presentations. And I’m still going to get that, because it wasn’t just that he had it, he had access to it through other people who have done the actual research. So this is incredibly stupid, and all this has done is to alert everyone what the stakes really are tonight. I mean, just watch your TV screen and imagine a world where all we have to look forward to is more terrorism, higher prices, more American kids dying in places where we don’t want them dying.

AB: Deterioration of the environment.

RH: The environment going to hell in a handbasket. The oceans, the atmosphere, larger cases of greenhouse warming as we pour the last gasp of fossil fuel into the air in an effort to keep us at some “standard of living.” That is the resource downward spiral I discussed the other night with George. And [it is] the reason that I wanted this audience to reach out and get me to a position to testify in front of the President’s Space Commission.

Well, one of the things that is happening, as part of our East Coast trip in the next few weeks, [is that] I have set up a personal meeting and discussion with a key individual on the President’s Space Commission. And what struck me in our conversation, (this was before I actually talked to Gene, and the reason I called Gene is because I thought, okay, let’s do this as a one-two punch -- let’s bring these conversations into the same arena), when I talked with the Commissioner, what struck me was how he was more apocalyptic than I had been on the air the other night, when I talked about “the resource box,” and how the President’s space vision is our “last, best hope” – provided,  we reach out and do it the smart way, the intelligent way, which involves some of the technologies and physics that Mallove had access to.

And, when this Commissioner was talking to me, he said, “Dick, I think this is our last chance. If we don’t do it this time, we will never do it -- because the resources won’t be there, the ‘political will’ will not be there, we will be swallowed by this monster of ‘everybody stuck in the same room, firing in the dark at each other over a few scraps of food’ ….”

I mean, [he brought up] my basic metaphor that I used on the air the other night. And that’s what was going to bring us together [Gene and myself] in that meeting. It was based on that [space commission] meeting, that I called up Gene, and I said, “Let us think of a way to bring what you know is possible now to Washington, to show people who are honest, but ignorant, that there is a way out of this trap. There’s a way out of this box … while we have time.”

And tonight, he’s not with us anymore ….

AB: And you were going to go? Are you going to actually have a demonstration available for me? You’re going to have a real over-unity device?

RH: Now that I don’t have Gene to act as a go-between, it will be more difficult to get to the principles. But I’m gonna make one hell of a try, and I’m gonna try to do that. I don’t know the timeframe yet.

AB: But you’re saying you have this device?

RH: I know I--

AB: Or, you can lay your hands on it?

RH: I know that Gene personally saw it, witnessed it, wrote about it … gave testimonials.

AB: All right, well you see… Hold on Richard, hold on David, we’re approaching the top of the hour. If all of that is true, then that would potentially be a motive for murder. If you really had that, that would certainly be a motive for murder, and that’s not to say that’s why he was just murdered, bludgeoned to death. But if you really had what we just talked about, that would be a motive … no question about it.

From the high desert in the middle of the night. On the weekend, this is Coast to Coast AM, rockin’ along.

(Commercial break)

AB: Indeed, so Richard Hoagland, David Wilcock are both here. We, to this moment, have been discussing the world’s oil situation. Actually, we’ve been talking about the alternative to that. What you’re really talking about [is] the oil situation, the desperate situation [that] has people after us, and us after them, as in a war. And it’s gonna get a lot worse before it gets better. As you see that price at the pump go up … and up … and up … and up, you’re soon going to see our economy going down, and down, and down, and down. That’s what’s at stake. Nothing less than ultimately our survival. And a leader in the alternative field of energy, Dr Eugene Mallove, has been bludgeoned to death, and that’s news this night, so we’ve been discussing it.

Listen, a programming note. I am not going to be here next weekend. Ramona and myself are going to New York where we have been invited to see the premiere of the movie The Day After Tomorrow. In case you’ve never seen what an invitation to a 125-million dollar movie looks like, I thought I’d share it with you, so I scanned it, omitting, blacking out a little bit of the RSVP number, telephone number, which I don’t think you could have read anyway, but I thought you’d be interested to see what an invitation of that sort would look like. That’s what’s up on the webcam tonight. So we’ll be attending that next weekend on the 24th, actually in New York, instead of being here. So this time next week, I’ll be well on my way to New York City for that event.

[It’s] a once in a lifetime kind of deal, really, so I wanted you to know that next week, I believe that we’ll have one replay and Barbara Simpson will be here for the other evening. All right, in a moment, back to our guests: Richard C. Hoagland and David Wilcock. Stay right there.

(commercial continues)

AB: Once again my guests, Richard C. Hoagland and David Wilcock. Gentlemen, welcome back to the program. Alright, look, I do want to get off a little bit on what we had, what we were going to discuss. Strangely, in a lot of ways it doesn’t, it’s not that far off the mark anyway…

RH: Well no, it’s absolutely, incredibly on-point, because—

AB: It really is. Yeah, here’s what I want, Richard. Look, we’ve got a neighborhood. We’re Earth. We can look at Mars and we’re looking very hard at Mars now. You know what, Richard, there’s something else I wanted to settle just before we even get into all of this and that is, for a few weeks or months now, the audience has featured or believes that we have a feud going on…

RH: (Laughs)

AB: And it’s not true. At least I don’t think it’s true, not on my part.

RH: Not mine either.

AB: What I did do, I went on the air and said with regard to some photographs that had gone up that, “You know, I’m sorry, I see rocks.” Then, I hadn’t heard from you in a while and, you know, two dimensional me, I’m not changing that, some of the things that you pointed out as possibly, I don’t know, in the various different…

RH: Artifacts, junk.

AB: Artifacts that you see. I don’t see the same junk. I see rocks. And I still just see rocks. But we have had no feud that I’m aware of going on. I’m sure word of my saying that reached you…

RH: Yes, it did.

AB: But then again that’s not really anything new between us.

RH: But Art, Art, just because you … remember what you told me the night the first image of the Face on Mars, whole Face, came in 2001?

AB: Yes. I’m not talking about the Face now.

RH: I know, but remember what you told me? You said “hang it up, get another job, go do storm windows, it’s over ….”

AB: Well, you mean the cat box picture?

RH: No, no, this was the one in 2001, the full Face image.

AB: (thinking) mmmmm

RH: I can play the tape.

AB: Well, okay. That may well be too.

RH: In a reasoned reconsideration, going back and looking and thinking, you came around … to the other night, I heard you say, “the damn thing is cat-like on the one side and monkey-like on the other.

AB: It is. Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.

RH: Well, it “only” took you three years, Art.

So I’m a very patient person. I figure if you can’t see what I see as soon as I see it … just give you time.

AB: (Laughs) Anyway, anyway, just so they know, there was no feud.

RH: There are people out there that I’m sure would love to create a “feud.”

AB: Yeah, they always do that.

RH: And when David and I cooked up this little thing we’re gonna do tonight, the first person I picked up the phone and called was you -- because you and I started this [discussion about alternative energy and Physics] on the air many, many years ago, discussing the backdrop to the new physics that Gene Mallove gave his life for. It is a complete revolution in the paradigm, which is not being discussed in any mainstream halls, in any mainstream venues ….

In fact, what I’d like to do to -- kind of -- intro this section of the program tonight, is to read a short section. And I know you hate reading, but--

AB: Yeah, I do. You know I just want to set this up. And I started to …

RH: Well, let me tell you what I wanted to read and then you can decide.

AB: Yes.

RH: This is Gene’s last editorial, which is so incredibly prescient. It’s almost like he knew he wasn’t going to be with us.

AB: Read it.

RH: I’m sitting here, holding it in my lap, reading it again.

AB: Go ahead and read it.

RH: For the second time…

AB: Right, just do it.

RH: Okay. He calls it, “Breakthrough: Science Censorship, the Invisible Evil”.

“The Spirits and Opportunity rovers on Mars have left their landing cocoons, and are exploring the surface of an alien world that has been long captivating the human imagination. The robotic laboratories are sending back spectacular imagery and other data which, thanks to the Internet, gives scientists and laypeople around the world an unprecedented chance to explore, vicariously, another planet. There is no doubt that this is a huge accomplishment. It demonstrates progress in technological sophistication, in astronautics, communications, computer technology, and robotics, applied towards valuable ends to learn about another world by touching it from afar.

The success of the latest Martian initiative might suggest to some that all is well in the halls of science. Everything is working as planned. New vistas are opening up. We may soon be confronted with further evidence that Mars harbors some kind of life or perhaps once had living things that left remains. Science has triumphed. We are collectively experiencing the fruits of over four centuries of revolutionary scientific progress. There appears to be no obvious evidence of science censorship in these missions; everyone gets to see pretty much all the data, all at once, in nearly real time. Wonderful.

But beneath this triumph of the extension of human exploration stands another reality of that science, one that is not pleasant to contemplate. Just at this moment of success, for those of us who most of our lives have dreamed of Martian vistas opening up, we are now all too aware of how much more human beings would be accomplishing at this time, and how fantastically better off civilization would be, were we allowed to use collectively all of our faculties and powers of reason.

But isn’t science supposed to be one of the most liberating endeavors? How can I claim that we are not being allowed to use all our faculties and powers towards making a better world? Easy. If there is even one choke-point at which such appropriate information about scientific discoveries is withheld or diminished, the community of scientists and the supportive citizenry who fund their work publicly and privately are defrauded. Sadly, today, such a choke-point exists. It is the routine censoring of scientific information that does not conform to dominant scientific paradigms of the day.”

AB: Now, that’s Eugene Mallove, brutally--

RH: And then, he went on to detail what exactly he was talking about.

AB: Brutally murdered today in Connecticut.

All right Richard, we are exploring Mars. We ultimately will explore our other planets. We have neighbors, they are these planets that we can look to. If we are trying to figure out what might happen to Earth, or what has happened to Earth, or even how we got here, the whole mess, we’ve got to study our neighbors. And as we study our neighbors, we come to certain conclusions. And I think that’s kind of the center of where we are tonight. What is it that we know about Mars or any of our other planets or close neighbors that gives us clues about our own situation?

RH: Well, the thing that brought Gene and me together, and David Wilcock, is a kind of a common thread -- which is exploration on the cutting edge of the unknown. When we tripped over the Cydonia problem, you know, decades ago now … two decades ago … and tried to unravel, you know, if it was real, and then what did it mean, one of the key things that I’ve figured out with the help of Erol Torun is that there appears to be a “Message” left in the ruins of an ancient Martian civilization, at a place called Cydonia on Mars. That message had to do with the underpinnings of Reality; how Physics really works … what relates us -- as conscious beings on this planet -- to stars, the galaxy, energy processes, possible technologies that don’t use oil …. 

The whole nine yards appear[ed] to be in those geometric formations [at Cydonia].

AB: How do you get that out of that? How do you get from there to there? If you would.

RH: Well, in the simplest possible nutshell, we found that the structures around the Face on Mars were not in random order. They appear to have a very precise geometric pattern.

AB: Meaning?

RH: Meaning they were laid out…

AB: No no no, I understand that. Meaning what though?

RH: Well, we then discovered that this geometry was not just “any old geometry,” but appeared to be a geometry that was the underpinnings of physics in the nineteenth century. And that physics talked not about quanta, and zero-point energy, and “things that go bump in the night” that can’t be measured. Like, you know, “x-teenth number of dimensions” that can never be tested. It talked about higher dimensions that could be tested. Where energy could flow from “higher dimensions” into our dimension … and literally create all of the Reality that we see.

AB: Well, that’s pretty wild, but I don’t understand what in the geometry tells you that story.

RH: That’s where things get complicated. And that’s where websites come in, and books, and twenty years of teaching people -- so I don’t want to—

We can do that as we go through this set of examples of things we’re finding in the solar system now.  But I don’t want to bog down people with a tutorial, all right? I want to get to the good stuff.

AB: But that’s an incredible statement to make, on this Face.

RH: The incredible part of the statement is that the same geometry that mathematicians and physicists were working with, leading to higher dimensional possibilities -- people like Reimann, back in the nineteenth century -- is the same geometry we found apparently encoded in the set of ruins on the planet Mars!

AB: David, how do you fit into this at this point. I mean, where do you fit in here?

DW: Well, here’s a kid nineteen years old who reads Monuments of Mars and has his world completely turned upside down -- because everything he had taken to be reality is suddenly called into question. There is a series of relationships between clearly artificial monuments on the Cydonia plateau, which demonstrate angular relationships, certain specific angles such as 19.5 degrees, and those angles correspond to a particular form of geometry. So, I spent years and years of my life with – at the forefront of my mind – Hoagland’s model, thinking about how geometry could be affecting planets, because the basic bottom line …

AB: Let’s tell everybody about 19.5. There is something that anybody can demonstrate to themselves, and that is that at about 19.5 degree point [above or below the equator] of a planet, you can observe very unusual things, evidence of energy within the planets at that 19.5 degree point. Is that accurate?

DW: Absolutely.

RH: It goes all the way from the sun through all the solid planets, like Earth that we live on or Mars, to the big gas giant planets, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, you find the largest energy upwelling on these planets at 19.5 degrees.

AB: Which is this hyper-dimensional point that you’re always telling us about, and you believe a source of energy for not just our planet but all planets, right?

RH: It wasn’t a matter of belief. It was when we saw this geometry, this pattern … remember all science starts with just seeing a pattern--

AB: Yes.

RH: Then we starting asking questions of people that I knew – experts in various fields – what did this pattern mean? Did anybody every notice this pattern anywhere before? And it was my friend Stan Tenen, at the Meru Foundation, you know, who’s been working on Biblical texts for years and years and years…

AB: Yes, yes, yes.

RH: …who said, “oh, that pattern is found in Coxiter and several other eminent mathematicians, and it relates to hyper-dimensional models. Models of higher state spaces, higher realities that can not be seen, or touched or tasted -- but can be modeled mathematically as an abstract of theory and, had been used as part of the cornerstone of nineteenth century physics … when physics was just being born .. by people – [scientific] giants -- people like Faraday and others.

AB: Is it your position, Richard, that the energy at this point, this hyper-dimensional point that you’re always talking about, is the source energy of much of the so-called “free energy?”

RH: That’s what brought us and Gene together. Because, when I laid out my take on this and he came at it from twentieth century physics and he began to see more and more anomalies, that was the beginning of our conversation. What I said to him point blank one day was, “Gene, I don’t think ‘cold fusion’ is fusion at all. I think it is something different, something more fundamental, something revolutionary -- something potentially hyper-dimensional, something that is transmitted from another dimension and appears in our dimension as an anomalous energy source … under certain conditions .…”

AB: But, people can see this… [that’s] what I’m trying to get through to them. If you look at the 19.5 place on a planet, that much is obvious.

RH: Oh yeah, just go look at a map of the planets. Go to NASA’s website and download some of those stunning globes.

AB: Right. I take it this hit you as well, David.

DW: Oh yeah, you look on Venus and you have these two volcanoes at 19.5. You look on Mars and you’ve got Olympus Mons, three times the size of Mt. Everest -- which is not only at 19.5, but is precisely 120 degrees west of the Face, and a hundred twenty degrees is exactly where the other tip of the [inscribed, 19.5-degree] tetrahedron would be.

RH: It’s more of the same geometry.

DW: Yep, then it goes on to the Great Red Spot on Jupiter, which has been stable for at least three hundred years. Uranus has a Great Dark Spot.

AB: All of this is true folks. Check it out yourselves. There is something special about that .…

RH: And in the solar cycle, the eleven year solar cycle that you’re so in love with, Art.

AB: Well, it’s a love/hate relationship--

RH: That’s right.

DW: (Laughs)

RH: Okay, I found years ago in an old Scientific American, one of the key solar experts, a guy named Parker, published that the peak latitude of sunspots, when the cycle peaks every eleven years, is plus or minus 19.5 degrees. Then I found people, when I started talking about this on the air, you know, on your show and other shows, sending me little technical papers -- like we have an “electro-jet phenomenon” that atmospheric scientists, upper atmosphere scientists at NASA Goddard, have been watching for years. Guess where the electro-jets are marking? They’re like super-altitude jet streams, except they’re electrified. 19.5 degrees north and south!

More and more and more examples of this kept coming up, over and over again -- to where I finally said, “Okay, this has got to be where we went wrong.” Nineteenth century physics somehow got suborned, we took the wrong path and we went down the left road in the canyon instead of the right road out to the plain. If the nineteenth century physicists had stayed on course, “stayed the course” as George Bush Sr. would say, we would have free energy today! We would not have our guys and women dying in Iraq. We would not have Bin Laden at our doorstep. The World Trade Towers would still exist. They might be five times taller, and made out of amazing materials – because, with this kind of energy, you can do astonishing technological things.

We would probably have a garden on Earth. We would probably, you know, be able to feed everybody that’s here … and those that are coming.

In other words, it’s the kind of vision that Mallove had. The New Energy Age -- when people embrace the real Physics, and apply it to a Real technology, [which] will liberate us from this albatross of oil. [It a vision that Gene] could give to every human being on this planet. And what astonished me, and you know, was part of our discussion for years and years and years, as he fought me [was], that we had found the keys to this “in a bunch of ruins on another planet!”

To my intense gratification, the day that I talked to Gene -- two or three days before he died -- he acknowledged to me that “Cydonia is real,” “they’re about to announce life on Mars,” and the [hyperdimensional] Physics that I’ve been talking about as [being] behind the free energy technologies that he has on tap, “is probably what’s causing it to work ….”

AB: Alright. Both of you hold on. God knows the world does need a very fast change, doesn’t it? I think everybody out there certainly knows that in the pit of their stomach, in your gut, you know it, right? That we’ve got to initiate a change, and that it’s gotta come very, very soon. I’m Art Bell. This is Coast to Coast AM.

 

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